Perfectly Imperfect
Perfectionism
In today's episode of MaryLayo Talks, I’m with guest, Dr Tom Curran, a world-leading expert on perfectionism. We talk about perfectionism and share our own personal experiences.
Questions included:
- What led you to focus on perfectionism?
- What's perfectionism and how does it develop and impact on someone's mental health?
- What misconceptions about perfectionism should be debunked?
- How could someone know where they sit on the perfectionist spectrum?
- What role does society play in fostering or challenging perfectionist tendencies?
- What interesting research findings have you found about perfectionism?
- How can someone overcome the challenges related to perfectionism?
Take a moment to delve into what may be 'beyond the smile' - listen in to the conversation.
Guest details:
Thomas Curran is a chartered psychologist and Associate Professor in the Department of Psychological and Behavioural Science at the London School of Economics. He has written on perfectionism and related topics for TIME magazine and the Harvard Business Review. His work has been featured in publications such as the New Scientist and the Times of London, and covered by many international publications including the Guardian, Economist, Telegraph, Wall Street Journal, New York Times, and Ariana Huffington's 'Thrive Global' campaign. In 2018, he gave a TEDMED talk entitled 'Our Dangerous Obsession with Perfectionism is Getting Worse' and in 2023 he published his debut book, ‘The Perfection Trap.’
Guest's website: https://www.thomascurran.co.uk/
MaryLayo's spiritual wellbeing tip:
- Meditate on the bible scriptures: Matt 11:28-30 & 2 Corinthians 12:9
- Listen to Dear God. Artist: Cory Asbury
Related resources: Also check out podcasts Episode 4: Not now...Later! & Episode 10 Still Procrastinating?
Connect with MaryLayo:
For help in dealing with mental health related matters, please seek specialist advice and support if needed.
Transcript
1
::MaryLayo: Welcome to Marylayo Talks, a podcast
that.
2
::MaryLayo: Discusses mental health and
spiritual well being.
3
::Before we jump in, there may be episodes that
are particularly sensitive for some listeners.
4
::MaryLayo: And if that applies, then I hope
you'll be able to join me whenever you feel
5
::ready and able.
6
::MaryLayo: In today episode, I'm talking about
perfectionism with my guest, Dr. Tom Curran.
7
::Now, Tom knows all about perfectionism.
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::He's an associate professor in the department
9
::of psychological and behavioral science at the
London School of Economics, and his TED Talk
10
::on perfectionism has received over 3 million
views.
11
::He's also the author of the perfection track.
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::So, given that perfectionism is something that
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::I've struggled with, I was all eggs on what he
had to say.
14
::Let's join in the conversation.
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::MaryLayo: How did you actually come into
focusing and specializing in perfectionism?
16
::Tom : Well, it's very much a personal journey.
17
::Perfectionism is something that I've carried
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::alongside me for a number of years, and it's a
double edged sword.
19
::It carries you a certain way, but at the same
time, it carries a lot of baggage, too.
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::And if we're balancing it out, I would say the
damage outweighs the positives.
21
::And the reason why I say that is because I
reached a point in my life where I really was
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::struggling with the weight of expectation I
was placing on myself.
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::And I felt that other people had placed on me
to do well, to lift myself above other people,
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::just kind of overcome my background, which is
working class, not very affluent background,
25
::and in this middle class world, where
everybody just seemed to be so well adjusted,
26
::so smart, and spoke so well, you don't want
that background to define you, but at the same
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::time, you feel like you've got to keep
striving to overcome it.
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::So it just completely overwhelmed me.
29
::And I had a mental health breakdown and panic
30
::attacks and fatigue and depression, all sorts
of stuff, which really made me think a lot
31
::about getting some help.
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::And when I did get some help, I was brought to
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::the awareness that this was rooted in my
perfectionism.
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::So that's where it started, really.
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::And then I decided that I should really learn
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::more.
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::And I was in the academic system, so I wanted
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::to do work in this area, did some research,
and ten years later did the TEd thought, wrote
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::the book, trying to get the message out there
about the true cost of perfectionism.
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::MaryLayo: And here you are.
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::Tom : Yeah.
42
::MaryLayo: So then how would you define
perfectionism?
43
::And you've kind of mentioned already how it
impacted you personally in terms of your
44
::mental health.
45
::So how would you define perfectionism?
46
::And if you can explain how it develops and
then impacts on someone's mental health.
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::Tom : Yeah. And I think this is a really good
point to begin with, because I think people
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::often confuse perfectionism with other things,
like conscientiousness, meticulousness, being
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::diligent, having high standards and all those
sorts of things.
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::And I certainly thought that too.
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::I thought perfections were holding me up.
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::I thought it was carrying me forward.
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::I've always making me successful.
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::I didn't want to let it go because I believed
that while everything else was coming down
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::around me, perfection is the one thing holding
me up.
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::And I think that's why it's so dangerous,
actually, because we don't recognize that
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::perfectionism isn't any of those things at
all.
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::Atroute is a form of deficit thinking so
extreme that we just live our lives trying to
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::overcompensate for those shame based fears and
not feeling like we're enough.
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::We're not perfect enough, we're not successful
enough, attractive enough, productive enough.
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::Whatever it is that in our lives we fear is
deficient, perfectionism will find it and
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::amplify it.
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::And so if we start there with a definition of
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::perfectionism, from that inner sense of
deficit, of lack, then you can really begin to
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::unpack the reasons why it's possibly not as
positive as you think it is.
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::Certainly not high standards, certainly not
conscientiousness or diligence, which are very
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::sort of active, optimistic forms of striving.
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::Perfection is a very defensive form of
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::striving, trying to conceal and hide, trying
to be perfect, to gain other people's love and
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::approval, to in some way soothe those shame
based fears.
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::And so it's really there, that realization,
that awareness that you can start to then see,
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::okay, well, now, what happens with
perfectionism?
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::While perfections are very reactive to stress,
if they come under challenge, if they're
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::threatened in any way, that's really stressful
for them because that essentially creates a
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::smashing effect on what's already fragile self
esteem.
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::They find it very difficult to derive
satisfaction from accomplishment because they
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::can never feel like they're ever enough.
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::The better they do, the better they're
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::expected to do.
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::It's like chasing the horizon.
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::The closer you get, the further it moves.
82
::It's simply the thief of joy in that respect.
83
::But at the same time, when we haven't done so
well, there's a lot of self criticism and self
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::loathing that can come in because we castigate
ourselves for not being enough, for showing
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::people our vulnerabilities and flaws.
86
::You can really begin to unpack why
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::perfectionism can be really damaging with that
starting point of deficit.
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::MaryLayo: Basically, from what you've said,
everything about perfectionism is negative.
89
::There isn't any positives really attached to.
90
::We can separate that out in terms of being
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::conscientious and that kind of stuff.
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::So is there anything else you'd say about the
93
::misconceptions or the myths about
perfectionism that you'd want to address or
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::debunk?
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::Tom : Look, perfectionism can carry you set a
certain distance in the short term.
96
::Problem is, it's not a sustainable way to
strive over the long run.
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::We're going to get burned out because we're
going to move ourselves into the zone of
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::diminishing the decline in returns to every
unit of increase in our effort.
99
::And that's going to lead to a lot of cynicism,
a lot of reduced accomplishment, a lot of
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::worry, a lot of doubt, and eventually
exhaustion and burnout.
101
::There's that misconception I think is
important to recognize.
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::But there's also a second thing that I think
is really important for people to know about
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::perfectionism, and that's that perfectionist.
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::Are people also really or the world class self
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::sabotages?
And this is why we don't see a very strong
106
::correlation between perfectionists and
success, because perfectionists will try to
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::avoid failure so intently that they will
sabotage their chances of success to do so.
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::See this time and time again in the lab, like,
if you give people a task to do, let's say
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::you've given them a puzzle task or an athletic
task, and you say you should comfortably
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::achieve it, away you go.
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::And then you tell them at the end that they
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::failed.
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::They didn't make it, no matter how well they
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::did.
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::But it's okay.
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::Don't worry about that failure.
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::You can redeem yourself.
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::You can try again.
119
::Non perfectionistic people don't really change
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::their effort.
121
::In fact, they try a bit harder.
122
::But perfectionistic people just completely
withdraw on the second attempt because you
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::can't fail at something you didn't try at.
124
::And so there's this other aspect of
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::perfectionism when it comes to success.
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::It's really curious.
127
::This is almost a paradox, in a sense.
128
::They are so intently aware of failure and how
129
::it feels and how shameful it feels and
embarrassing it feels, that they will just
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::remove themselves from those situations.
131
::And that isn't just withdrawal or avoidance.
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::It looks like procrastination, too.
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::It's just an anxiety management strategy that
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::perfectionists engage in because their first
motivation is to avoid failure.
135
::So really, I think that's the big myth that I
would like to debunk.
136
::It's this idea that perfection is anyway
related to success.
137
::It isn't.
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::It has a blocking effect on success because
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::it's an unsustainable form of striving and
there's a lot of self sabotage that goes on.
140
::MaryLayo: And what would you say in terms of
the pressure that society puts on people?
141
::I was thinking earlier how times have changed
in the sense that just in terms of inclusion,
142
::diversity, what perfect looks like, and having
people of all shades or body sizes, for
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::example, in the adverts, there is that drive
or change going on to change what people's
144
::idea of perfect is, because that stereotype
isn't true.
145
::So what would you say in terms of the pressure
society has, especially when it comes to young
146
::people and how that may be changing?
147
::Tom : Yeah, pressure is a big one.
148
::I mean, I don't think there's any doubt the
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::pressures have increased in terms of how we're
expected to look appear, particularly on
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::social media.
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::Social media is huge.
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::It's really amplified those pressures and
create some almost echo chamber of limitless
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::perfection into which is really difficult to
escape.
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::And on the one hand, it's a really great thing
that we have a lot more openness,
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::vulnerability on social media.
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::Be real movement, a lot of inclusivity and
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::shared, essentially, interests that bring
people together.
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::These are really positive things about social
media, I think, things that we should
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::definitely hold on to.
160
::But that perfect lens, that comparative lens,
161
::when it becomes a should, like, I should look
a certain way, I should behave a certain way,
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::I should have certain things like all these
shoulds that are projected at us in social
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::media.
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::If we take them on as things that if we don't
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::have, we're going to feel bad about ourselves.
166
::Well, that's when it can become a little bit
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::more problematic on the balance of things.
168
::Social media is really pushing on those
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::pressures with young people, and I think
they're internalizing them as pressures to be
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::perfect.
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::We're seeing that in the data, by the way,
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::there's a strong correlation between iPhone
use and perfectionism.
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::And so I think it's something we have to be
aware of because the data that we're gathering
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::and seeing is really worrying in terms of
rising levels of perfectionism, and certainly
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::social media is underneath that.
176
::MaryLayo: And what else, like you mentioned
about some of the data that's come through
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::your research in terms of iPhone use and its
correlation to perfectionism, what other kind
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::of, I guess, interesting findings or things
that you've observed whilst doing research
179
::that you can share.
180
::Tom : Yeah. It isn't just social media,
although social media is the big one.
181
::Schools and colleges have become very
competitive, and that's also having an impact
182
::on young people that feel a lot of pressure.
183
::And, look, no one spared this pressure.
184
::It doesn't matter where you are on the social
hierarchy, where you live, what communities or
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::backgrounds you're from.
186
::These pressures are really felt across the
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::board these days.
188
::And my perfectionism came from trying to
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::overcompensate for material lack.
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::People from ethnic minority backgrounds have
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::structural hurdles and stereotype threats that
they also must overcome.
192
::And the data is quite clear that they're held
back in the workforce and in education for
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::systemic reasons.
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::Those are hurdles and obstacles that they need
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::to overcome.
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::So, of course, that creates a lot of pressure
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::on those communities, too.
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::On women.
199
::The gender pay gap and the educational
attainment gap, which is being very fastly
200
::bridged, is also having a massive impact on
the need to do more, to be more all the time.
201
::Look, there's just so many pressures across,
and it cuts across all sorts of different
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::communities.
203
::And I think one of the things we're seeing in
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::the day, I think, is that this doesn't
discriminate.
205
::This is something we're seeing in everybody.
206
::Given what we know now about the dangers of
207
::perfectionism, how it can impact on our mental
health and well being, I think it's something
208
::we really need to be paying attention to.
209
::MaryLayo: So you mentioned, like, right at the
start about your own personal story or battle
210
::when it comes to perfectionism.
211
::How did you manage to get through that?
212
::Yeah, how did you overcome that so that now
you're on the other side and you're kind of
213
::talking about it because you've been through
it and you see that actually how detrimental
214
::it is.
215
::How did you personally get through that
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::season?
217
::Tom : Yeah, I wouldn't say I'm, like, fully
recovered.
218
::I still have the hang ups a little bit.
219
::I think you never really lose the insecurity.
220
::We live in a world that really teaches us that
those insecurities are real and valid and
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::normal.
222
::It's really hard to shake that.
223
::But at the same time, you can move yourself
down the spectrum with various coping
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::strategies.
225
::And I think the big one is to really push
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::yourself out there, show up, be vulnerable.
227
::I think this is so important.
228
::The moment you realize that it's okay to suck
at something or to be not perfect at
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::something, and that's okay.
230
::And actually, in some ways, there's something
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::very joyous about that experience is the
moment that perfectionism starts to melt away.
232
::And so I'd encourage anyone of your listeners,
really, to take the first step in a different
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::direction.
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::Perfectionism will have you managing your
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::impressions all the time, worrying about how
you looks and avoiding situations where you
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::might be seen to be vulnerable.
237
::Well, you've really got to take that head on.
238
::You got to throw yourself in a situation where
you're not maybe as comfortable public
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::speaking.
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::If that's something you're not very confident
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::at, just put your hand up at work to do a
talk.
242
::If you don't feel like you're a very good
cook, but you really like interacting with
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::people and you're quite a social person, well,
just offer to host one night, your friends and
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::family, come round and do it.
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::Put your hand up to lead a project leader, all
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::hands meeting.
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::Do things, basically what I'm saying, out your
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::comfort zone.
249
::It doesn't matter what it is, and it can be
250
::messy and chaotic and it can be really bad.
251
::But that's not the point.
252
::The point is that you're putting yourself out
there, you're being courageous, and you're
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::doing things are a little bit different.
254
::And that your perfectionism would tell you not
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::to do.
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::And I'm not going to say that that's easy,
257
::certainly isn't.
258
::But the more you do it, the more you get used
259
::to that discomfort.
260
::And the more you see, actually that there's
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::something quite humanizing about these
experiences.
262
::You can laugh about it, you can joke about it,
and that people around you are supportive,
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::too.
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::The consequences of not doing well are nowhere
265
::near as catastrophic as what you build them up
to be.
266
::So definitely, I would say pushing yourself to
a little by little is so important to do
267
::things a little bit about your conversation.
268
::But while you do that, you also have to be
269
::kind to yourself and kind to other people,
too.
270
::You're going to slip up, you're going to make
mistakes.
271
::Things aren't going to go well all the time,
and that's okay.
272
::Pat yourself on the back, tell yourself it's
okay, and there's always next time.
273
::Don't criticize yourself, don't castigate
yourself.
274
::And if you find yourself descending into that
self criticism, make sure you recognize it and
275
::do something about it.
276
::Don't let it happen again and again and again.
277
::And you can slip back into those bad od
habits.
278
::It's really important to be preemptive.
279
::So self compassion is really, really
280
::important.
281
::And finally, I think the thing is with
282
::perfectionism is it's quite a rigid and
overwhelming kind of personality to carry
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::around.
284
::And we can think in very strict and narrow
285
::terms of, we must do this or we have to do
that, or if I don't do this, the world's going
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::to come crashing down.
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::These kind of types of very distorted
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::thinking.
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::I would say perfectionism is going to get you
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::to think like that all the time, but don't
suppress it or succumb to it, but actually
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::write those thoughts down.
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::And it can be really helpful to diary them.
293
::Sometimes, especially when it's a stressful
situation, we're filled with doubt.
294
::We can often push ourselves too hard, but try
not to succumb.
295
::Write those thoughts and feelings down and ask
yourself, how much do you actually believe
296
::that?
How much do you actually believe that?
297
::Does it have to be done or would be nice to,
or I'm going to try my best, and if that's not
298
::enough, then that's okay.
299
::These are more softer, constructive ways to
300
::frame those thoughts that allow a little bit
of flexibility and a little bit of permission
301
::for things not quite to go to plan.
302
::And that's how I talk to my students about
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::these things and people who are struggling
with perfectionism.
304
::It's really about softening those rigid
beliefs and reframing what we call quite
305
::distorted ways of goal setting or thinking
about what we need to do.
306
::So those are the things that I would bear in
mind when it comes to trying to overcome our
307
::perfection.
308
::MaryLayo: Thanks, Tom. Because when you were
talking, I like how you've basically given
309
::quite a few different examples, starting from
practical staff that could be implemented in
310
::the home as well as something in the workplace
in terms of putting yourself forward for a
311
::presentation.
312
::While you were talking, I was thinking about
313
::how once upon a time I had a manager, he used
to tell us as a team, he's not looking for
314
::excellent or perfect, just good enough.
315
::Is it good?
316
::Fine.
317
::And someone like myself within.
318
::I didn't voice it out, but within myself, I'm
thinking, no, that doesn't gel with me.
319
::That doesn't sit well with me, and I'm going
to do it to my standard, not your standard,
320
::because I won't get that satisfaction.
321
::So I like how you've kind of talked about
322
::challenging that rigid thinking and cutting
yourself some slack.
323
::So I want to ask, how would someone know where
they sit on that spectrum of perfectionism?
324
::So, I think I saw on your TED talk, you
mentioned a tool that was developed.
325
::Yeah.
326
::Can you talk about, or share a bit more about
327
::how someone can identify their traits and
maybe where they sit on that spectrum so that
328
::perhaps they'll be able to know how much
they've progressed when they've tried to move
329
::forward in terms of addressing that issue of
perfectionism.
330
::Tom : Yeah, absolutely.
331
::So we have a measure of perfection.
332
::It's called the multidimensional perfectionism
scale, and it measures perfectionism on a
333
::spectrum.
334
::And there are three core elements of
335
::perfectionism.
336
::Self oriented, which is a sense of inner drive
337
::and desire to be perfect and nothing but
perfect.
338
::So there's questions like drive to be perfect.
339
::If I'm not perfect, I'm hard on myself, et
340
::cetera, et cetera.
341
::Those are the sorts of things we ask.
342
::You can rate yourself on a one to seven.
343
::To what extent do you agree with that
344
::statement?
Totally agree.
345
::Not agree at all.
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::And everywhere in between.
347
::Socially prescribed perfectionism is another
form of perfectionism, but this time it comes
348
::from the outside.
349
::So that I expect everyone expects me to be
350
::perfect, and they're watching and waiting to
pounce if I'm not.
351
::So we might ask questions like other people
expecting to be perfect, my family expects me
352
::to be perfect, other people are waiting to
pounce and let me know if I haven't been
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::perfect, these sorts of things.
354
::And again, the same principle.
355
::This is a spectrum, and you can score, you can
agree or disagree or anywhere in between.
356
::And then other into perfectionism is the last
form.
357
::Perfectionism is turned outwards onto other
people.
358
::So I expect you to be perfect.
359
::And if you're not perfect, I'm going to let
360
::you know.
361
::So you might ask things like, I find it
362
::difficult to tolerate substandard performances
from other people, for example, or other
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::people in my life have to be perfect and
nothing but perfect.
364
::Things like that.
365
::And again, you agree or disagree with those
366
::statements, and we can measure those three
elements of perfectionism.
367
::And not everybody has the same constellation
of perfectionism.
368
::Some people are high on self and low on other
and in the middle of social, some people are
369
::really high on social and middle of self and
low on other.
370
::All sorts of different combination of
constellations.
371
::And that's the really interesting thing about
perfection.
372
::No one size fits all.
373
::Everyone has their own unique profile.
374
::But what is really important to remember is
that with this tool, we can see how
375
::perfectionistic one is and we can start to
begin to break down some of those thought
376
::process, break down some of those behaviors,
break down some of those feelings that are
377
::associated with those three different forms of
perfectionism in an effort to move us down
378
::that spectrum.
379
::And that's really, really important, because
380
::if we were to just talk about perfection, a
dichotomy.
381
::You are a perfectionist, and I'm not a
perfectionist, then that suggests that there's
382
::no flexibility there, it's quite rigid, and
there's no way that we can address it.
383
::So the spectrum approach, I think, is really
important when thinking about perfectionism.
384
::MaryLayo: So tell me.
385
::Tom : Well, Mary, let me ask you, can I ask
you a question?
386
::Is that okay?
387
::MaryLayo: Yeah, go for it.
388
::Tom : I would love to know how perfectionism
has impacted on your life.
389
::Would you describe yourself as a perfectionist
and what are the sorts of things that.
390
::How has it impacted you?
391
::MaryLayo: Gosh, okay.
392
::I've had tendencies in the sense of spending
393
::far too long on something than I should, and
even though I know how much time it's going to
394
::take me, but I know that it's not normal.
395
::So I know that if someone else or many people
396
::are going to do that same task, they won't
take as long.
397
::But for me, I expect to take long, and it can
take me long to do a task.
398
::So I would say that is a trait, another trait
is probably overthinking.
399
::I can overthink things, and I think that is
also a trait when it.
400
::Well, I'm assuming definitely other things
would be probably checking things over that
401
::double checking, probably even triple
checking.
402
::If I'm being very honest, a lot of that is
probably unnecessary.
403
::And at times, if I've double checked something
and I've spotted something, that, oh, that's
404
::an anomaly, and I found it when I double
checked, it almost justifies why I've double
405
::checked and I need to double check.
406
::So when someone says good is good enough, I'm
407
::thinking, I don't know if I get.
408
::I would say I would get pleasure.
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::I think the journey isn't pleasurable.
410
::So I definitely identify with a lot of what
411
::you've said in terms of just that striving and
that constant striving.
412
::However, I think the output at the end, well,
I feel like I know when something's hit the
413
::standard, how I want it to look, how I want it
to be.
414
::And so I stop when I've got to that point.
415
::I guess I must get a sense of pleasure, of
416
::knowing that, oh, this is how it looks, this
is how it's turned out.
417
::I guess another trait is almost that feeling
of, if I had to do it again, can I do it
418
::again?
Would I be able to hit that bar?
419
::And I think that's probably a trait of
perfectionism, even though you've done it
420
::before and you could do it again.
421
::It's that doubt of being able to repeat that
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::same standard.
423
::Tom : Yeah, I get that so much so.
424
::MaryLayo: I guess I can identify with you
because I certainly know, or I can identify
425
::with what you've said because I definitely
know that it's not to the same extent as it
426
::was years ago or even many years ago.
427
::So I do cut myself some slack.
428
::It's just not natural, if you know what I
mean.
429
::I guess my first thoughts, my first intentions
is built on being that rigid.
430
::This is what I'm going to do.
431
::This is how I'm going to do it.
432
::This is what I do to get to A, B or C, and it
doesn't need to, or even feeling perhaps
433
::overwhelmed when it comes to certain tasks or
projects or activities.
434
::And I found that when I look back or when I
think back, I think it really wasn't worth all
435
::that drama or that headache I gave myself.
436
::But it's repetitive.
437
::So it's almost like I haven't learned from
maybe the previous round that how I've been
438
::going about it is not the best way of going
about it because it always ends up being okay.
439
::It always ends up being fine.
440
::And the journey for it being fine can be
441
::eventful, unnecessarily, I think.
442
::Tom : Do you know what?
It's really interesting you say that, because
443
::that's so true about the journey being not
linear at all.
444
::Sometimes you're going to succumb to your
perfectionism and that's okay.
445
::That's what happens sometimes in life.
446
::It just gets a bit on top of you and you feel
447
::like you got to go back to your perfectionism
because that's what's going to help you get
448
::out of this little tricky situation.
449
::And it's just about learning and being easy on
450
::yourself when those things happen, because
they will.
451
::But, yeah, honestly, your story is amazing and
I think it will resonate with a lot of people
452
::because I think a lot of things you're saying
there, I do too.
453
::Particularly the overthinking.
454
::Oh, goodness me, if I could overcome that
455
::tomorrow, I'd take it.
456
::But there are things we can do, and the things
457
::I've mentioned earlier have really helped me,
and I hope they'll have your listeners, too.
458
::MaryLayo: I think it will help me as well.
459
::As well as the listeners.
460
::Is there anything else you want to leave and
share with listeners that you feel you haven't
461
::said but can be actually really helpful?
462
::Tom : Well, I think obviously I would
recommend everybody go and buy my book.
463
::MaryLayo: Sure. Plug.
464
::Tom : Plug. Yeah, exactly.
465
::MaryLayo: I mean, if it's anything.
466
::But if it's anything in terms of what you've
467
::said so far, I think it's going to be a
worthwhile read just in terms of that
468
::practical advice based probably not just on
your own personal experience, but also in
469
::terms of the research and what you found over
the years.
470
::Tom : Yeah, absolutely.
471
::It's a controversial book in some ways as
472
::well, because it definitely puts the emphasis
on society.
473
::And some of the perfectionism that we're
seeing today, I think is certainly a response
474
::to malfunctioning society and a society that
pushes us to be perfect just to get by.
475
::I think there's also an element in the book
that will surprise readers, but I think
476
::hopefully also brings them comfort in some
ways to know that at some level, this isn't
477
::all our fault.
478
::There's a broader context to those feelings,
479
::and it's important to be aware of them.
480
::So I would certainly recommend my book on that
481
::front as well.
482
::But no, I think, look, we've had a really good
483
::chat, and I just want to spread the message
far and wide that perfectionism is something
484
::that's not good, something that holds us back
way more than it pushes us forward.
485
::And there are far more healthier ways to
strive where we'll be just as successful, if
486
::not more successful, but also.
487
::MaryLayo: Happy with thank you, Tom. Thanks
for joining me on Mary Lyo's talks and all the
488
::best with your book and all the good stuff
that you're doing when it comes to your
489
::research and your profession.
490
::Tom : Thank you, Mary. It's been great to
talk.
491
::MaryLayo: Here's a spiritual wellness tip for
you.
492
::The first is meditating on Matthew, chapter
eleven, verses 28 to 30.
493
::And it reads, then Jesus said, come to me, all
of you who are weary and can carry heavy
494
::burdens, and I will give you rest.
495
::Take my yoke upon you.
496
::Let me teach you, because I am humble and
gentle at heart, and then you will find rest
497
::for your souls.
498
::For my yoke is easy to bear and the burden I
499
::give you is light.
500
::The other scripture is two Corinthians,
501
::chapter twelve, verse nine, which reads, each
time he said, my grace is all you need.
502
::My power works best in weakness.
503
::MaryLayo: So now I am glad to boast.
504
::MaryLayo: About my weaknesses so that the
power of Christ can work through me.
505
::Thank you for listening.
506
::MaryLayo: Do follow and join me again next.
507
::MaryLayo: Time on Mary Layo talks beyond the
smile, close.
